[ossig] ossig Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4
Ditesh Kumar
ditesh at gathani.org
Tue Jan 1 23:26:36 MYT 2008
Thanks Gerald for your feedback. I remain puzzled on the following
points from your post:
0) How can you claim "freedom of choice for customers" and then go on to
mandate the inclusion of OOXML? Shouldn't customers have the "freedom of
choice" to use ODF where they see it fit for purpose?
1) You do realize the enormous practical difficult of supporting two
different standards that aspire to achieve _exactly_ the same thing,
right?
In what way is having to support both OOXML and ODF practical for end
users, especially when one considers that OOXML isn't even an ISO
standard yet (and that it has received much technical criticism)? Oh,
and of course, there is no application out there that *fully* supports
OOXML (yes, not even MS Office 2007) - why should governments support
OOXML when it is so poorly implemented at the current point in time?
1) Will Microsoft be supporting a native fully-feature ODF read/write
capability within Microsoft Office with the same level of integration of
OOXML? After all, Microsoft was fully observing the ODF standards
development at the OASIS TC so Microsoft had all the opportunity to
ensure interop will not be an issue, correct?
Now, if Microsoft doesn't wish to native support a fully featured ODF
read/write integration, wouldn't that mean Microsoft is biased in favour
OOXML in the interest of its Microsoft Office product?
(Note that the ODF plugin for Microsoft Office is substandard in its
integration with the MS Office environment, and nobody would use it in
an enterprise environment due to the lack of native integration).
2) Who has certified OOXML as an open standard? Which open standards
yardstick is being used to determine whether OOXML fits the criteria as
an open standard?
3) Microsoft has made statements in the past that ISO will fully control
OOXML[1], [2]. Your post contradicts this by saying ECMA fully controls
OOXML. So who exactly controls OOXML? Could you shed some light here? Is
it ISO or is it ECMA? Or is it Microsoft?
4) If Microsoft believes in a "multiple standards approach", why is
Microsoft only pursuing an OOXML strategy with its customers and
partners (eg with the recent RosettaNet news[3])?
It seems that Microsoft objecting to ODF-only support but is perfectly
OK and supporting OOXML-only support. So, what does a "multiple
standards approach" exactly mean here?
Looking forward to your answers, Gerald.
[1] http://ntouk.com/?view=plink&id=302
[2] The OOXML community website had a news link saying that OOXML
approval will put OOXML under ISO control.
[3] http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/business/0,39044229,62033726,00.htm
Regards,
Ditesh
On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 11:41 +0800, Gerald Lim wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Here are the official replies from MS.
>
> · On the specific standards:
>
> o HTML will be the primary format for public information published
> on the Internet
>
> o PDF will be the mandatory format for maintaining the original look
> and feel of documents
>
> o ODF shall be applied to documents that may be changed after
> download, i.e. documents to be filled in users
>
> · The main reason given for the decision is that everyone
> should have equal access to public information. Every citizen should
> be able to choose which software they want to use in order to have
> access to public information. Also, this decision will improve the
> competition among vendors in the software market
>
> · The decision will be implemented from January 1st 2009 for
> government entities
>
> · Public sector entities will have until January 2014 to
> change already published documents
>
> · The decision does not prevent public entities from
> publishing in other document formats outside HTML, as long as the
> documents are also published in one of the mandatory formats ODF and
> PDF.
>
> · Documents published on public websites is a first step in
> standardization of document formats. The government will also consider
> formats for document exchange with the public sector and eventually
> the exchange of documents internally in the public sector
>
> · The Ministry will also start working on legislation that
> ensures compliance by local and regional authorities
>
> · The press release does not state which versions of PDF and
> ODF they have decided upon, but the Ministry over the phone referred
> to the current ISO-version of ODF (presently 1.0) and PDF 1.4 and
> newer. They where rather unclear on the PDF versions, but most likely
> they are referring to version 1.7 which is in the pipeline to become
> an ISO-standard. We must expect that the catalogue of approved
> standards and thus the actual versions will be published very soon.
>
>
>
> Assessment:
>
> · It was expected that the government would make a decision on
> document formats in the December/February timeframe, and that OpenXML
> at this point would not be included in the list of approved standards.
> The Minister has recently made statements indicating such an outcome.
>
> · We are disappointed and find the basis for the decision
> lacking. This applies to several key aspects. For instance, there is
> no explanation as to why OpenXML is excluded and why the non yet
> formally ISO-approved version of PDF is included.
>
>
>
> MS messages:
>
> · Microsoft Norway supports the government's efforts to
> promote the use of open standards in the public sector.
>
> · OpenXML is an open standard approved and controlled by the
> international standardization body ECMA and should be included
> alongside ODF.
>
> · Microsoft favors freedom of choice for customers and
> developers and therefore supports a multiple standards approach.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2007 12:00 PM, <ossig-request at mncc.com.my> wrote:
> Send ossig mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft objects (Ditesh
> Kumar)
> 2. Re: The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft objects
> (Hasannudin Saidin)
> 3. Re: The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft objects (Khairil
> Yusof)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:39:13 +0800
> From: Ditesh Kumar <ditesh at gathani.org>
> Subject: [ossig] The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft objects
> To: myoss at lists.foss.org.my
> Cc: ossig at mncc.com.my
> Message-ID: <1197621553.3970.69.camel at cassini.gathani.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> The Netherlands is deciding to use OSS but Microsoft is the
> only one
> objecting (just as they did in Malaysia).
>
> Gerald, care to comment?
>
> ---
> From
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071213/ap_on_hi_te/netherlands_open_source;_ylt=Aiq9G3BD9k_R3v3L4GwXJzkjtBAF
>
>
> AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The Dutch government has set a soft
> deadline of
> April 2008 for its agencies to start using open-source
> software ? freely
> distributed programs that anyone can modify ? the Netherlands
> Economic
> Affairs Ministry said Thursday.
>
> Government organizations will still be able to use proprietary
> software
> and formats but will have to justify it under the new policy,
> ministry
> spokesman Edwin van Scherrenburg said.
>
> Van Scherrenburg said the plan was approved unanimously at a
> meeting of
> two parliamentary commissions on Wednesday.
>
> Many governments worldwide have begun testing open-source
> software to
> cut costs and eliminate dependency on individual companies
> such as
> Microsoft Corp. The government estimates it would save $8.8
> million a
> year on city housing registers alone after switching to open
> source.
>
> Microsoft has raced to achieve "open source" certification for
> its Open
> Office XML standard, but has so far failed to receive
> endorsement from
> the International Standards Organization, the certifying
> authority
> recognized by the Dutch government.
>
> Microsoft Netherlands spokesman Hans Bos noted that its Word
> documents
> were still allowed as equal alternatives for the moment and
> said he
> expects the company to receive approval soon for its Open
> Office XML to
> qualify as open source.
>
> But he said the company was worried about and opposed other
> aspects of
> the Dutch policy, especially the provision that agencies
> should prefer
> open source.
>
> "We think it's not in the best interest of the wider software
> market to
> single out one model for endorsement like this," he said.
>
> The numerous European towns and cities, notably Munich,
> Germany, and
> Vienna, Austria, using open-source systems remain a tiny slice
> of the
> overall software market.
>
> The Dutch policy directs government organizations at the
> national level
> to be ready to use the Open Document Format to save documents
> by April,
> and at the state and local level by 2009.
>
>
> --
> May your signals all trap Ditesh Kumar
> May your references be bounded
> ditesh at gathani.org
> All memory aligned
> http://ditesh.gathani.org/blog
> Floats to ints rounded
> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:08:00 +0800
> From: Hasannudin Saidin < hasan at my.ibm.com>
> Subject: Re: [ossig] The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft
> objects
> To: ossig at mncc.com.my
> Message-ID:
> <
> OF076F27B7.8E676CBA-ON482573B1.0031B81F-482573B1.00323B01 at my.ibm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Ditesh,
>
> You wanna write to the author and clarify to him the
> difference between
> open source and open standards? You once reported on the Dutch
> plan for
> open standards:
> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2007/09/the-dutch-plan-.html#comment-93379808
>
> The author is probably this guy: http://www.tobysterling.net
>
>
> Or perhaps "Open Office XML" (sic) from Microsoft is indeed
> going open
> source?
>
>
> Hasan.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ditesh Kumar
> <ditesh at gathani.o
> rg>
> To
> Sent by: myoss at lists.foss.org.my
> ossig-bounces at mnc
> cc
> c.com.my ossig at mncc.com.my
>
> Subject
> [ossig] The Netherlands
> going OSS,
> 12/14/2007 04:39 Microsoft objects
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> ditesh at gathani.or
> g; Please respond
> to
> ossig at mncc.com.my
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Netherlands is deciding to use OSS but Microsoft is the
> only one
> objecting (just as they did in Malaysia).
>
> Gerald, care to comment?
>
> ---
> From
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071213/ap_on_hi_te/netherlands_open_source;_ylt=Aiq9G3BD9k_R3v3L4GwXJzkjtBAF
>
>
>
> AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - The Dutch government has set a soft
> deadline of
> April 2008 for its agencies to start using open-source
> software ? freely
> distributed programs that anyone can modify ? the Netherlands
> Economic
> Affairs Ministry said Thursday.
>
> Government organizations will still be able to use proprietary
> software
> and formats but will have to justify it under the new policy,
> ministry
> spokesman Edwin van Scherrenburg said.
>
> Van Scherrenburg said the plan was approved unanimously at a
> meeting of
> two parliamentary commissions on Wednesday.
>
> Many governments worldwide have begun testing open-source
> software to
> cut costs and eliminate dependency on individual companies
> such as
> Microsoft Corp. The government estimates it would save $8.8
> million a
> year on city housing registers alone after switching to open
> source.
>
> Microsoft has raced to achieve "open source" certification for
> its Open
> Office XML standard, but has so far failed to receive
> endorsement from
> the International Standards Organization, the certifying
> authority
> recognized by the Dutch government.
>
> Microsoft Netherlands spokesman Hans Bos noted that its Word
> documents
> were still allowed as equal alternatives for the moment and
> said he
> expects the company to receive approval soon for its Open
> Office XML to
> qualify as open source.
>
> But he said the company was worried about and opposed other
> aspects of
> the Dutch policy, especially the provision that agencies
> should prefer
> open source.
>
> "We think it's not in the best interest of the wider software
> market to
> single out one model for endorsement like this," he said.
>
> The numerous European towns and cities, notably Munich,
> Germany, and
> Vienna, Austria, using open-source systems remain a tiny slice
> of the
> overall software market.
>
> The Dutch policy directs government organizations at the
> national level
> to be ready to use the Open Document Format to save documents
> by April,
> and at the state and local level by 2009.
>
>
> --
> May your signals all trap Ditesh Kumar
> May your references be bounded
> ditesh at gathani.org
> All memory aligned
> http://ditesh.gathani.org/blog
> Floats to ints rounded
> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ossig mailing list
> ossig at mncc.com.my
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:57:25 +0800
> From: Khairil Yusof < kaeru at inigo-tech.com>
> Subject: Re: [ossig] The Netherlands going OSS, Microsoft
> objects
> To: ossig at mncc.com.my
> Message-ID: <1197626245.11986.27.camel at localhost >
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
>
> On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 17:08 +0800, Hasannudin Saidin wrote:
> > Ditesh,
> >
> > You wanna write to the author and clarify to him the
> difference
> > between open source and open standards? You once reported on
> the Dutch
> > plan for open standards:
> >
> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2007/09/the-dutch-plan-.html#comment-93379808
> >
> > The author is probably this guy: http://www.tobysterling.net
> >
> >
> > Or perhaps "Open Office XML" (sic) from Microsoft is indeed
> going open
> > source?
>
> This mistake still seems to be quite common, my colleague did
> it twice
> at GIF guide launch.
>
> It gets much worse when it comes to copyrights, licensing,
> patents and
> trademarks.
>
> "Unlicensed Software"
> "Copyright Free"
> "We lose ownership"
> "It has IP infringements"
>
> It gets quite tiring, and and I feel like I'm becoming RMS.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ossig mailing list
> ossig at mncc.com.my
> http://mncc.com.my/mailman/listinfo/ossig_mncc.com.my
>
>
> End of ossig Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4
> ************************************
>
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--
May your signals all trap Ditesh Kumar
May your references be bounded ditesh at gathani.org
All memory aligned http://ditesh.gathani.org/blog
Floats to ints rounded http://www.openmalaysiablog.com
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